Sunday, November 21, 2010

discussion on "How Computer Nerds Describe God"

congratulations to KK has already published his new book - What Technology Wants(The CHinese report here) last month.I dont have read it yet but Im damn sure that would bring us a great ideas for this era.We have a conversation about world view of KK and his old interview in 2002 that I want to share you guys what we have been discussed.Hope can bring something wondering for you.

|--------------punk rocker hackers------------|
|--------------Oct 30th,2010-------------------|

evening,my fellow gears,
How you doing these days?We dont have a new thread for few weeks.Is there anything made you feeling that want to start a new thread but something inside never stop telling you it's not about time?wow...that's how I felt.I get used to thinking of rush to start a new thread going to ruin the quality of our conversations.really?part of,at least.

We've had to accept the truth that we still living and existing in a suck but wondering world.Informations around us every second moment in our life even though we dont want to receive the piece of shit but our brain still having suck it all,passively.New technology keep up with high-speed growth that never care about what's the purpose of human beings.It might not calling "man" not far in the future by using the term "humanoid" instead of it.New Tech going to crushing our current ideas just like Internet did to us in which compared to past 15 years.

I as pathetic humanoid,stand before the great universe.The only thing I can do is to praise how wonderful creation I see.Anything else?What if I was lived in fertile cresent 3000 years ago?Life as simplicity.We dont have much choices back then.Now,I want to know what exactly am I and what exactly the world I living in beings.We can explain the world of creation(or you could said "evolution") by philosophy?physical?or what?We need a explanation but it still cant help us figure out what's the life meaning.that's not only concerning about knowledge(of course we all hackers hungering for knowledges),this is about life.Jesus Christ said"I am the way(methodology),I am the truth(ontology),I am the life(epist)".Should I believe his proclaim?dont judge too fast.

bullshit a lot,right?I would like to introduce a great man to you gears---Kevin Kelly.This interview[1] by Christianity Today in 2002.Im not going to telling how important to reinterpret God himself.Im alway trying to focus on organic system.We need to build it up as a open education system running on someday in the future:-)

may LORD's hacking spirit guide us!!!

CT:Have you seen an increase in the intersection of science and religion?

KK:I think there has been a minimal formal interaction between those spheres, but I detect an increase in frustration that there is not more.

I think my meager attempts to bridge those [through writing] are done slightly against the grain in the sense that there are not a lot of other attempts to do it. It is difficult to do because technology is seen as almost the antithesis of spirituality. Science is cast as the rational vs. the irrational of belief. It is a huge gap to overcome.

Shawn:Did I mentioned about 4-layers model?theology->philosophical

firstable,We need a absolute standard that called theology level.In this level,reason is not most important one.Build your faith is more important than anything,"I dont believed God is exist until you can prove it to me" implying that he(or she) believed that only the reasoning proven can make them to believe that God is exist.Everyone has their own absolute standard.For me,it's reformed theology and something from Judaism.

Then we can go to do philosophical thinking under those absolute standards.This is philosophy of most important attributes of man is to reasoning.Just like as Aristotle thought that the most differ between human and animal is that man can reason.We have to philosophical thinking for life meaning,Love and so on.

It's not good enough when we got a philosophy model.We still need to precisionize what we got from generic consequence of ideas.That's why we need math to solve problem.

after those 3 levels,you can hacking in any fields you,law,computer,etc.........

CT:With such a gap, how have you balanced faith with science in your own life?

KK:My interest in science came first. I was science nerd in high school. The way I have reconciled it is that I see my mission as to talk about it, to explore the two, and to talk about faith using the vocabulary and logic of science.

I don't feel a division in terms of emotion. I recognize it is a division in the logic. My attempt is to articulate why science and religion are really talking about the same thing or how they can talk about the same thing.

Shawn:of course he didnt feel a division.One organic life,remember?

CT:What does your Wired article "God is the Machine" say about the
identity of God?

KK:There was part of that piece cut out in which I was stressing that every age reinterprets God with their own metaphor. God doesn't change, but our metaphors do. The current reigning metaphor that is very unacknowledged in our culture right now is the computational metaphor. It permeates everything and we don't even know it.

What I was suggesting was that one could use this completely universal and accepted metaphor to describe God. It isn't necessarily truer than other metaphors, but it is only truer to the age. It may be no more valid than past metaphors, but it makes a lot more sense to people 30 years and under. It is an attempt to use a current language and syntax and perspective and metaphor to describe an eternal thing.

In your 1999 paper "Nerd Theology"[2] you use another computer concept, information, as a metaphor for God. How does that apply?

The public at large's acceptance of the notion of information actually gives us ways to understand God. First of all, what is information? The kinds of ways you would describe it are the ways we would describe God: there's no material, it's a force, it has a power.

We can use concepts of information to describe God. It is not fair to say they are equal because obviously a bit on a CD is not God. When I talk about the universality of computation as something that is shared and fundamental I am not suggesting that God is computation other than to say that computation is one way we can think about God.

Shawn:interesting part~seems he mentioned about few important principles of reformed theology.
1,God doesnt change,but our metaphor do.
2,reinterpreter God is the tough tasks of in every age.different ages had corresponding metaphors.

And KK talked about computational metaphor permeates everything today.Ok,Im not a extreme computerist.But I think the computation itself as old as world creation.

CT:From where have you learned the most about God?

KK:I came to my belief fairly late in life, so my influences actually came from spending huge amounts of time in other religions in Asia. As a photographer there, I spent inordinate amounts of time hanging out at temples, mosques, monasteries, etc. That has a lot of influence.

Science fiction also played a critical role, because it seemed to me that science-fiction authors are actually the theologians of our age.They grapple with the "what ifs." They look at how technology changes our lives and changes our minds.

Theologians employed in academia seem to be far more remote and not engaged with actual changes occurring. I would guess that Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry have much more of an effect. People actually listen and pay attention to their theological musings, which is a lot of what science fiction is. What do we do when we meet other intelligence? What does it mean to be a human? These questions are much better addressed by science fiction.

I would say that the influence of other religions in practice and science fiction was as influential for me as Bible studies and sermons. In that sense, I am probably not alone.

Shawn:why theologians(normal ones) cant make a great world view just like as Star Trek and starcraft in average case?What's your first ideas come out when you hear the words "priest preaching"?kind of boring,right?I hate almost of Christian preachers I met.But I knew a few of "I-hate" preachers still are good at speak God's words,literally.whatever I like or not that I have to go BIble study.Because I knew truth out there.

Warning:almost of preachers I knew just guffing around on the stage.God will shut them down...

CT:How did these influences lead up to what happened in Jerusalem on Easter morning, 1979?

KK:That's a story I don't think I could tell any better than the one I told on NPR. I simply couldn't tell it any better. But what happened is something I don't really have a good explanation for. I would call it a surrender or an acceptance.

I think you can make two models of the universe: you can make an entirely logical argument that there is no God, [or you could make an] equally logical argument of a genesis and a creation of the world. In the end, it comes down to a decision that one makes. You go down one road and within that road, everything makes complete sense.

I think that is sort of what I did. It took going to Jerusalem on Easter morning out to the empty tombs to really trigger an acceptance of this alternative view. Once I accepted it, there is a logic, comfort, leverage that I have because of that view.

Shawn:this part is about his personal comment!

CT:Why did it take this experience to convince you?

I don't have a good explanation. I was older, and I was a reluctant convert. I am sort of an intellectual type. I don't know why Jerusalem, but that's what it took.

I have no idea why I fell in love with my wife. Why her? She is probably the least likely. I could have spent years and years trying to imagine who I would marry and never come up with her. So why?

It is really strange why these things happen. I am not sure it is important if there is a logical explanation. I think I am a person who likes to see things in action and to have first-hand experience. I am more interested in basing things on my experiences rather than just what someone told me.

CT:You are currently writing a new book, what is it about?

KK:A major theme is that technology is not some lesser evil that we just have to put up with, nor is it a neutral tool that can be used for good or bad. Instead, I suggest that technology is actually a divine phenomenon that is a reflection of God.

Technology expands life's possibilities. It also brings other views of God. I think that the human intellect alone simply can't come close to apprehending God. It will require all the intellects in the universe,including any artificial intellects we make, if we are to approach even the slightest glimmer of who God is.

The reason why we want more technology is that every individual human has a certain God-given set of talents that require things like technology in order to be expressed.

Imagine Beethoven being born 2,000 years ago when there was no orchestra or piano. What a loss that would have been. He of course would have made the best music he could have with whatever he found, but we would not have the glorious work that he did. Same with George Lucas and film.

There are people born today that will never really be able to develop their full set of talents God has given them because technology does not exist yet. We have a moral obligation to increase the amount of technology in the world.

Shawn:God gaves his citizens specific missions in the correspond ages.The principle is still:Given much more,require more."But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.Luke." 12:48

CT:What can computer nerds or sci-fi writers teach theologians about God?

KK:One of the great things about C. S. Lewis was that he was both.That is one of his strengths and why people are attracted to his work.He was basically a science-fiction theologian.

Someone once said that Earth is either the only intelligent life in the universe or it is just one of millions. Either statement is an astounding, amazing fact. Let's say the second is correct and there are a lot of other civilizations all around the universe. The question is, do they have a Jesus?

That's a question most theologians are not addressing. But it is certainly the kind of question science-fiction writers will address. I think by addressing it, they quickly come to grappling some pretty interesting and powerful things. I think science fiction can get you to that point a lot sooner than traditional theology studies.

Shawn:C.S.Lewis and JR Tolkien are 2 of greatest world view designers in 20th century.Especially,Tolkien's The Lord of The rings and The Silmarillion gave you a new way of thinking to describe the Christian's world view that created a reflection of Bible to a mid-earth world.The game aint over yet.Thank KK gave us a gift.This
interview is useful to build a organic system through 4-layers model.

ok.You gears must be sleepy.That's why I dared guffing a lot tonight!We are going to discuss some details of it.Hope can see you tomorrow!

May Lord's hacking spirit guide us!!!

[1] How Computer Nerds Describe God

[2] nerd theology

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